/* A quick note on bias
This is JO's Blog of Pwnage, not the New York Times. I write what I write here because I believe in it. I am ADVOCATING certain viewpoints. Of course there is going to be bias anytime anybody is advocating anything, that's the whole point; you're trying to convince others of something, and the logical way to do that is to focus on the points that support your side.
The goal of this article isn't to lay out the pros and cons of a vegetarian diet vs a balanced diet. It's to lay out what I think is right, and why I think it's right. If you want to read it, do it. If you don't want to, don't. If you disagree, post and post why. Clearly I believe in certain things, and I'm going to advocate the shi*t out of them. Just because it's biased, doesn't mean what I've posted isn't true. I wouldn't be advocating something I didn't believe in, and anything that I didn't believe wouldn't benefit anybody who reads it.
Also, I'll probably only respond to counter-arguments if I feel like it. There's more than enough debate already out there by much more qualified people than you and I, even in the few links I've posted. My goal isn't to contribute anything new here, just to draw people's attention to a certain viewpoint.
With that said, please read on... if you want ;) */
They'll thank you for it later when they're happy and healthy.
Vegetarian diets are unhealthy... and here's part of the reason why (read from the experts below for a more comprehensive explanation).
Vegetarian diets are primarily based on carbohydrates.
Grains (bread, pasta, whatever) are likely going to be a common sight in vegetarian diets. Grains are not only bad because our bodies are not "designed" (not in the intelligent design sense, but the evolutionary) to eat them (more on this to come, it's a big topic), but also because they usually have a very high glycemic index. This means they will spike your blood sugar levels quickly, and therefore spike your insulin levels quickly.
Have a look here, the higher the worse. Notice how whole wheat bread (healthy... right?) and basically everything else under "bread" has a higher glycemic load than "chocolate bar" and are very close to "soda" (which is, for all intents and purposes, drinking pure sugar).
I realize that many, if not most, vegetarians will base their diet on fruits and veggies as opposed to grains, so the above may be a little unfair. However...
Fruits and veggies, although healthy for you when "used properly," are still carbohydrates.
Fruits are a mixed bag, but still pack a pretty solid glycemic load.
Vegetables have a lower glycemic index than fruit or grains, but they are still carbohydrates.
For a more complete, yet less useful for purposes of this article, GI, go here.
So for starters, you're more or less eating a pure carbohydrate diet.
Secondly, you're not getting enough protein. Remember, we need protein with a face. ***Thanks J-Brown for pointing out that tofu does count. However, it will be much more difficult to "meat" your protein quota just eating tofu. Remember, beans and nuts do not count. They don't illicit the same hormonal response in our bodies.
Thirdly, you're not getting any animal fat. If you want to burn fat, you need to eat fat. Fat does not make you fat, carbohydrates make you fat by illiciting an insulin spike (which tells your body to "store, store, store" nutrients as fat), whereas fat is a wonderful energy source.
As the movie Fat Head put it, "Mother Nature is not stupid." She surrounded animal protein, real protein, in fat, because our bodies are designed to run off of protein and fat.
So to make a long story short, all vegetarian diets are, by nature, going to be primarily carbohydrates with no proper protein or fat.
Tell all your vegetarian friends about Syndrome X. Hyperinsulinemia, the condition that occurs when your body secretes too much insulin, causes hypertension, type 2 diabetes, dyslipidemia, coronary artery disease, obesity, and abnormal glucose tolerance. And when you eat carbohydrates, you secrete insulin.
I think you can put 2 and 2 together...
So please, do your vegetarian friends a favor and shove some meat loaf down their throat.
EDIT::
Here are a couple quick links to some articles by people who have some more expertise than I do.
The Naive Vegetarian by Dr. Barry Groves. Probably should have just linked to this, since what do I know?
Biological and Clinical Potential of a Palaeolithic Diet by Dr. Loren Cordain (yes, our ancestors ate meat...)
What About Vegetarians? by Robb Wolf
Plant-animal subsistence ratios and macronutrient energy estimations in worldwide hunter-gatherer diets (via Robb Wolf with some other great articles, especially Boothe's)
My Escape From Vegan Island by Mark Sisson
Fat by Mark Twight
16 comments:
Totally agree man, even as I myself am not in the best shape..nor nearly where I was a few years back I still beleive in what you wrote...too true
Oh JO! Do I have lots to say about this... while you are correct, veggie diets are high in carbs, it's all about balance. Diet is all about balance. I don't believe that people should be totally veggie or total animal eaters. I believe people should eat whichever way makes them feel and function best. You can be a wise vegetarian and not go overboard on carbs and still be healthy. I have also read alot about your body ingesting TOO much protein.. so again balance!!
All your info is totally right, but tooooo biased! haha If this way works then definitely make it happen, but don't go into it believing that it's the perfect way of eating for you!
Great blog though, I love how you stand by your beliefs... great characteristic!!
I completely agree with Lianda as balance is the necesity. My question is how is a purely carb (and tofu, pfft... not real protein! ha) vegetarian diet could be considered balanced by any standards...
Jordan:
Thanks!
Lianda:
We're going to end up arguing the same point. I may have not been completely clear in this article.
I absolutely do not advocate an all-meat diet. Balance is entirely necessary. I eat meat, fruits and veggies, and nuts everyday.
However, I simply don't have it in me to say that any kind of vegetarian diet will be healthy. It's my view, and everybody is free to disagree, that human beings need meat. We evolved eating it, and won't be "healthy" without it.
But yes, balance is absolutely key, and fruits and veggies *are* good for us. The problem is it's near impossible not to have a carbohydrate-dominant diet while being a vegetarian.
I'm sure there is some stuff out there about too much protein, as well, but I don't have the expertise to comment on that.
S:
This is it.
S is me... just thought I'd clarify. useless other accounts...
Agreed, I cannot live without carne!!
Balance is the key to a diet. A balance between meat and veggies. Not a balance between Tofu/Soy Protein/Legumes etc. and veggies. To make it more clear, a balance doesn't occur between meat substitutes and veggies.
Vegetarians will always be deficient in many areas. It is why they all seek help with supplementing this vitamin, this mineral, and that new age stuff that is supposed to replace meat.
There is no replacement for meat! It is what it is.
Eat meat with every meal, eat veggies with every meal. Add nuts and seeds and fruit.
Sounds pretty balanced to me, but, I guess I am biased towards a healthy diet.
LU
Disclaimer:
I'm not a vegetarian.
Argument:
This article does nothing to prove that vegetarian diets are unhealthy, nor does it do anything to disprove that the opposite isn't true. Nor does it prove that the [unproposed] opposite - the "meat" diet, is any healthier than this nebulous "vegetarian" diet that you're attacking.
Disclaimer:
I believe most vegetarians are idiots and their diet is, in fact, terrible.
Truth:
A vegetarian diet has potential to be infinitely more healthy and life-extending than a typical [read: TYPICAL] meat diet.
Reality:
I don't give a shit. I think meat-eating preachers are idiots. I think meat-avoiding preachers are idiots. Anyone who's posted before me preaching balance is, in fact, not an idiot. However, anybody who thinks meat cannot be substituted by other substances in unresearched. It has been well documented that ancient civilizations in southern and middle america subsisted on black beans and corn - which form a complete protein.
It is difficult to substitute meat in your diet? YES.
Is it impossible? NO.
Your post deals with spikes in insulin levels, which is definitely a concern. But what's a bigger concern than glycemic index in foods is how foods are consumed. A typical meat-eating fast-food loving American loves to gorge three times a day - eat 'til they're full and don't think about it until the next prescribed meal time rolls around; and repeat. It is smarter to eat small amounts of food throughout the day, thus keeping insulin levels as balanced as possible.
Once again though, this is but a twig of a the elephantine tree we call diet.
Conclusion:
I really appreciate this post Jordan. It's sparked some interesting conversation, but lest we forget - diet shouldn't be a meat vs. veggie battle.
What I find more interesting is people's motives behind their decisions to eat and/or not eat meat. Many vegetarians lack any real justification for their diet, just as most meat-eaters do (other than the tired, and inexcusably lazy, 'because we're meant to'). I know a number of vegetarians who just can't stomach [read: ha!] the idea of eating a... creature. And, I know a number of vegetarians who don't eat meat out of a genuine concern for the environment, and the terrors the industry of meat production poses on our planet. (apparently if we were to eliminate a third of the cows in the dairy industry it would be the equivalent of taking 500,000 cars off the road - METHANE!)
As for me, I eat fish... beef can go fuck itself. Why? It stinks, and so do the people who eat too much of it. But I love buffalo, and I very much doubt that I'll ever be able to hate the perfect steak. Though, I can't help but the find the fact that the average north-american eats the equivalent of 93 animals a year... creepy.
Graham,
You preface your "argument" with the statement that you personally eat meat, and think that "most vegetarians are idiots."
Clearly, you chose to post anyways, so you must have some sort of personal "steak" or reason for truly wanting to convince people of a certain viewpoint.
Therefore, I am going to give you a lesson on advocacy, so that next time you can get your point across in a more effective manner.
Making personal and/or disrespectful attacks, such as the following, take credibility away from your argument and make you appear weak, or at least that's how we learned it in law school (or English 10 for that matter...):
1. "I believe most vegetarians are idiots and their diet is, in fact, terrible."
2. "I don't give a shit. I think meat-eating preachers are idiots. I think meat-avoiding preachers are idiots."
3. "[B]eef can go fuck itself. Why? It stinks, and so do the people who eat too much of it."
Trust me, nobody will be interested in any of the points you have to make if you convey them in this manner.
You have attempted to make a counter-argument, I believe, but an effective counter-argument should contain citations to authority to support your point, because you are truly unqualified without it (as we all are). And yes, I know there are plenty of qualified people out there who will vouch for a vegetarian diet; like I said, neither you nor I nor anybody else is bringing anything new to the table here.
You'll notice that never have I posted that I "hate" Vegetarians, or that I think Vegetarians are "idiots" (I know for a fact that most Vegetarians do it because they are trying to be healthy, and that is something I admire, but it doesn't mean I don't think they are misguided).
That's not what JO's Blog of Pwnage is about. We respect others here, and unfortunately the tone of your post deprives it of the opportunity to receive a response on "the merits," as opposed to with regard to your methodology.
I will, however, challenge anybody to go subsist off of corn and beans for the rest of their life. Surely not even you can believe that is a good idea.
"Disclaimer:
I believe most vegetarians are idiots and their diet is, in fact, terrible.
Truth:
A vegetarian diet has potential to be infinitely more healthy and life-extending than a typical [read: TYPICAL] meat diet."
I think you need to elaborate on what a typical "meat diet" is. I eat aprox. 200g of protein from meat and poultry sources, and 100g of carbohydrates from fruit and vegetables a day. I consider this a healthy diet, label it what you want. We have no idea what you are talking about at this point, however.
"Reality:
I don't give a shit."
Apparently you do... otherwise you wouldn't have posted this.
"I think meat-eating preachers are idiots. I think meat-avoiding preachers are idiots."
See above post (or attend a Kindergarten class) on the topic of respecting others.
"Anyone who's posted before me preaching balance is, in fact, not an idiot."
I'll be the first person to post about balance, as you would have seen above in my comment to Lianda's post. Balance is absolutely necessary. And as Dave said it, balance is going to involve meat.
"However, anybody who thinks meat cannot be substituted by other substances in unresearched."
Unfortunately, there is more than enough research on either side of the debate. That's why you need to do all the research yourself, pick a side you believe in, and go with it. There are plenty of people, some of whom are extremely qualified, who will say that whole wheat is good for you (http://recipes.howstuffworks.com/why-are-whole-grains-good-for-you.htm), but we know that's not the case, don't we?
"It has been well documented that ancient civilizations in southern and middle america subsisted on black beans and corn - which form a complete protein."
Black beans, for the reasons Robb Wolf mentioned in his video, are not a complete protein (IIRC, because they don't illicit the same type of glucagon secretion). As for corn... http://www.elook.org/nutrition/grains/6586.html
74g:9g carbs:protein ratio.
"It is difficult to substitute meat in your diet? YES.
Is it impossible? NO."
There's a difference between substitution and health. I can substitute the law degree I'm going to get in the future for a master's in English Lit, but that's not going to make me a good lawyer, which is my goal. If your goal is to be healthy, you're going to have a hard time doing it by substituting meat with beans and corn.
"Your post deals with spikes in insulin levels, which is definitely a concern. But what's a bigger concern than glycemic index in foods is how foods are consumed. A typical meat-eating fast-food loving American loves to gorge three times a day - eat 'til they're full and don't think about it until the next prescribed meal time rolls around"
OK, so now you say that a typical meat-eating American is also a fast-food lover. I consider myself a typical meat-eater, and regardless of something I posted on this blog several weeks ago, I am not a fast food lover. Correction: I love fast food, but avoid it.
I think that most people on this blog feel the same. The people who come here are striving for elite fitness, and they are not the 300lb'ers you see at the buffets in Vegas (or if they are, they're trying to change their habits). We're not really dealing with typical fast-food gorgers here.
And nothing about this post advocates gorging at McDonald's, so I'm not quite sure what you were going for here...
(continued on next post)
"It is smarter to eat small amounts of food throughout the day, thus keeping insulin levels as balanced as possible."
By using "thus" you imply that eating small meals throughout the day will keep your insulin levels balanced, which isn't quite true. If you eat small meals of certain carbohydrates, including fruit, you're still going to spike your insulin levels. Keeping carbohydrates low, and mostly eating ones with a low GI, are what will keep your insulin levels low. You don't need to worry about "balancing" insulin levels if you're not a diabetic (your pancreas does that for you).
But eating small meals is healthy and nobody will argue otherwise, I just don't see how it is a response to what I've written. I eat, and advocate, 4-6 meals a day, and of course keeping insulin levels low.
"I really appreciate this post Jordan. It's sparked some interesting conversation, but lest we forget - diet shouldn't be a meat vs. veggie battle."
And I appreciate that you posted that you appreciate it, and like I said in the above post, I don't believe you were trying to be as disrespectful as you may have come across (which is the only reason I posted this response).
Call it a battle, call it whatever you want, but like I said, I believe in order to achieve "fitness" (see newest post), you're going to need meat. If you don't want to believe me, then fine, don't, but let's compare Fran times or a 1RM clean and jerk.
"What I find more interesting is people's motives behind their decisions to eat and/or not eat meat. Many vegetarians lack any real justification for their diet, just as most meat-eaters do (other than the tired, and inexcusably lazy, 'because we're meant to'). I know a number of vegetarians who just can't stomach [read: ha!] the idea of eating a... creature. And, I know a number of vegetarians who don't eat meat out of a genuine concern for the environment, and the terrors the industry of meat production poses on our planet. (apparently if we were to eliminate a third of the cows in the dairy industry it would be the equivalent of taking 500,000 cars off the road - METHANE!)"
This has some good points. I didn't mention in my original post I know people have alternative justifications (as you mentioned) for not eating meat. However, that doesn't mean it's the optimal way to fuel your body, and that's what my post is about.
"As for me, I eat fish... beef can go fuck itself. Why? It stinks, and so do the people who eat too much of it."
See above.
"But I love buffalo, and I very much doubt that I'll ever be able to hate the perfect steak."
I'm one of the biggest buffalo advocates on the planet. I eat 4 buffalo burgers a day, totaling 160g of protein.
"Though, I can't help but the find the fact that the average north-american eats the equivalent of 93 animals a year... creepy."
Again, we're dealing with optimum performance and fueling a machine here. I acknowledge statistics such as this, but for my purposes, they are irrelevant.
I didn't mean for this post to come across as too harsh-toned, and hope it won't be interpreted that way. This is simply my piece-by-piece response to something that somebody clearly wanted a response from.
One more followup to the “corn and beans” theory… “In Kenya two tribes, the Maasai and the Kikuyu, live in the same country, the same climate, the same political system and the same environment. The Maasai, when wholly carnivorous, drinking only the blood and milk of their cattle, were tall, healthy, long-lived and slim. The Kikuyu, when wholly vegetarian, were stunted, diseased, short-lived and pot-bellied. Over the last few decades, the Kikuyu have started to eat meat — and their health has improved. Since 1960 the Maasai diet has also changed, but in the opposite direction. They are now eating less blood, milk and meat, replacing it with maize and beans. Their health has deteriorated.” McCormick J., Elmore-Meegan M.. Maasai diet. Lancet 1992; 340: 1042-3. Via http://www.second-opinions.co.uk/vegetarian.html
But JO maybe you didnt account that the Maasai are taller and healthier since they are trying to get college scholarships for NCAA Baskteball-LOL
what is your opinion on a possible idea that people should have to pass a test to eat meat, all they should have to do is watch the video "Meet your Meat" narrated by the Greatest Baldwin of all time.... Alec!!!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-75SLS8H7Gg
- Maddox
Not helping the cause, Addo...
ABOUT CORN
Michael Pollan is an aclaimed authour who has written several books about food.
The Omnivores Dilema
In Defense of Food
The Botany of Desire
If you would like to know about CORN. Read "The Omnivores Dilema". The agricultural revolution and the farming of corn are responsible for the majority of all health problems today.
I feel llike the Greek Dad in the movie,"My Big Fat Greek Wedding", when I say, Give me a health problem and I will show you that the root of this problem is CORN. Or shall I phrase it. Give me a food and I will show you how the rood of the food is CORN.
It is amazing how much of our food comes from CORN. It is also amazing how terrible CORN is for us.
However, if I couldn't find any other source of protein. If I had no other choice. I guess I would eat corn. Maybe some black beans too, but, I would have to be starving.
"toot"
Sorry, that was the beans.
In all seriousness.
www.michaelpollan.com
Thanks, Dave.
I mentioned corn in my "debate with a vegetarian" post too... check out those nutritional facts: nasty!!!
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